GerbilSite - Siena and Dakota REH and DEH

Again I am keeping a diary of small things that happened when I first got Dakota and Siena. This is just for reference for myself and perhaps any readers will also find it interesting to see how things progress.

I can definately say that getting your Gerbils from a breeder, CAN make a world of difference. Obviously it depends upon the breeder. But, just judging by Siena, I don't imagine you'll ever find such a friendly Gerbil in a pet shop. Phoenix and Monaco weren't very tame at all, they were probably the least friendly. Then Sydney, Kyoto, York and Kobe are all from the same breeder and they were friendly, but no where near as friendly as Siena. Then there's Dallas... Well from what I remember he was friendly and we were surprised at first, but now he's just a maniac :)

8th April 2004

Today I picked up the two little sweeties from Eddie Cope in Manchester, Siena is the female REH and Dakota is the male DEH. Siena is much smaller than Dakota and is 5 weeks old tomorrow and Dakota is approx 7 weeks. She is much more docile and calm than Dakota – this could be because she is younger and still bumbles around and doesn’t get scared all that easily.

I did not handle them very much apart from putting them in their tank Eddie had mentioned that Dakota had gotten pretty scared during the journey in his car to meet me. We are quarantining them and keeping them in the spare room to make sure we do not pass anything across to the other gerbils or vice versa.

9th April 2004

Today I tried to see how they would cope with being handled. Dakota did not appear to want to come out at all and I didn’t attempt to catch him in order to get him out.
I managed to catch Siena, and she was very friendly when out. I then decided to leave my arm in their tank in order for them to get used to my hand and used to my scent. Siena was very friendly and climbed out onto my shoulder numerous times; she also went for a short nap on my hand, whilst Dakota carried on digging and occasionally kicked bedding onto her.

I must have stood there for an hour or so, whilst Siena bumbled around climbing in and out and just sitting scratching, cleaning and yawning on me.
Dakota only attempted to walk on my hand twice, once was to scent mark me and the next was to launch yet another assault on my fingers. He managed to break the skin, but not draw blood… He doesn’t seem all that friendly, but for now I am putting that down to it being daylight and perhaps he hasn’t fully settled in yet.
I don’t know what to do with bitey gerbs, I’ve never had one that does that.

Throughout the day I have been down to check on them a number of times, each time Siena has been fine with being handled and coming out of the cage, but Dakota remained very skittish and scared. I think this could have been to do with it being daylight, and obviously him not being used to us yet.
Siena also allowed Zander to hold her and will climb into his hand when offered. She certainly is a very sweet tempered and tame little girl. I hope she stays this way because it would be sad if she stopped being like that. She is definitely what everyone would want their pups to be like, and I hope she also teaches her babies to be like her. I will have to keep on putting my hand in the tank, so she doesn’t lose that habit, rather than allowing her to climb out when she wishes once she is big enough to do so.

Once Pete got back from work, we eventually went down to get them out again. Pete decided to get Dakota out as well, and although not completely comfortable on your hand he is ok with being stroked and sat for periods on my arm whilst he allowed me and Pete to stroke his back and bum, but as soon as on your hands he did not like it too much, as well as us being quite scared of him biting. But with a lot of blowing at him every time he even considers it, hopefully he will grow out of the habit and leave my fingers alone!

Siena is also happy to eat whilst on your arm/in your hand already! Most gerbils take months! Dakota didn’t, he did take the food but then dropped it and left it for Siena to eat. He seemed to keep on getting our fingers mixed up with the food, and rather than going for the food he’d go for your fingers. He has actually managed to take food from our fingers, so we do know he can do it!

10th April 2004

Siena has worked out the wheel, only it makes a fair old racket and so I will probably take it out at night otherwise I’ll end up going mad.
We got both out again for a shortish period, and Dakota didn’t actually try to attack our fingers, but he didn’t really like to be held in the hand but seemed fine when off the hand. We can still easily stroke his back and sides with no problems really. I still hope that one day he’ll get better and will happily come into our hand whenever he wants to come out.
I managed to put a peanut on the tips of my fingers and Dakota picked the food up without going for my fingers, so that’s some progress as before he would miss the food and get the fingers instead.

As the days slowly go on, Dakota appears to be getting better and better. He is almost just like Kobe now, in that he doesn’t really like to be held in the hand but seems ok everywhere else. He’s also not too sure about sniffing fingers but does seem fine when it comes to being stroked.

11th April 2004

Today, although Easter so they probably haven’t had as much handling as they have over the past few days.

Probably the only thing that has changed is a small amount of progress with Dakota, he stood totally on my hand and then seemed to remember himself, after that he would put two front paws on my hand but never take the plunge into climbing up my arm. I could tell he was wanting to come out, and so thought it was probably a good time to see if he would actually do it.

As it is gone two in the morning and my back was beginning to ache from standing waiting, I eventually gave up and decided to try another night.

12th April 2004

Dakota has come on very well, he was happy to put his paws on my hand and sniff around for food. However, zander managed to pick him up after Dakota decided to jump on his hand and obviously didn’t complain once he lifted his hand. He hasn’t done it for Pete or myself yet though. He did also seem a lot better when holding him, he was stood with his legs splayed apart and his belly as close to the ground as possible.
Got some very nice photos of him today.

13th April 2004

Although Dakota still didn’t come onto Pete or my hand today, he seeming to be better when handled and is still sniffing at our hands looking for food, just like the rest of the gerbils will do. He has now taken to pooing on us, and Siena as peed on us for the first time… I wonder why they decide to start doing this even though we’ve had them 5 days or so?? Very odd, oh well I’m sure they will grow out of it soon enough.
I have noticed that Siena seems to be the dominant of the two, and whenever she us up, Dakota goes to bed because she takes over and doesn’t allow him to do much. I’m worried in case she’s bullying him… she can’t be though, she’s tiny. I see Siena eating all the time, but don’t see Dakota doing so very much, I do hope he’s ok.

15th April 2004

Siena is still weeing on us… She’s now been nicknamed Miss Pissy Pants… poor little bird.
You know what, when I went downstairs in the morning to take a couple of pics, I’d noticed that suddenly her coat seemed to have changed… The colour seems to be coming out more and you can distinguish between the orange and the white now! God, doesn’t take long does it. Also, looking through past pictures and I couldn’t believe that Siena does seem to have changed already, all this in a week! Geez.

Oh, I managed to get Dakota to come onto my hand and then I lifted him out… There’s a little bit of news, but nothing spectacular, as I suspect that he didn’t actually want to come out, he just jumped on my hand and I didn’t give him time to jump off again.

Siena

Dakota

Together

May 2004

Just an update on the two as nothing much has been happening for me to report about.

We bought a new tank for the two, a glass one rather than a plastic Duna and this is higher which allows more area and levels etc.

Now that Dakota is in our room and we allow him out on the bed he really has changed! He's quite happy to jump on me etc and doesn't seem too scared when we handle him, he also skips around, flips over etc - he must really enjoy the freedom. He is kinda annoying though as he constantly scent marks things... Grrr we've got another Monaco who does exactly the same!

He has also climbed out up my hand from the tank! Woohoo!! He's never fully done that before, so hopefully he'll start doing it more often.

They've been happily building tunnels, which is good to see. It really doesn't take them long to learn how to do that.

Siena is getting a lot bigger and she should be around the age where she become sexually mature... I am not sure how I feel about seeing my Gerbils having sex *laughing*

May/June2004

Update photos of the two, I have loads of photos of Dakota this time, I had to cut down on the number that I put on the page otherwise it would just be full of Dakota photos - goes to show how photogenic and amazingly gorgeous he is.

Siena

Siena is getting a little bigger, she is certainly bigger than she was, but that's to be expected but next to Sydney and

Kyoto she is still tiny.. But then so is Dakota. They both have some growing to be done.

I think that perhaps Siena is becoming more mature though, as recently I have seen Dakota attempting to mate her, if not then he's just scent marking but she just puts him in his place and they have a little boxing match. One day though perhaps she will allow him to do his job... Urgh sounds wrong doesn't it.

Dakota

Here's the handsom man himself, he's very pretty... I wonder if he'd do well in any shows... I'm not too sure myself because he has a very small line across his back around the neck area and it's definately not a moult line because it's been like that since we got him... He will probably lose marks so I'm not sure whether I would enter him or Siena for that matter at all. So I still don't have any Gerbils that I would expect to do well in shows.

July 2004

This is the month that Pete and I had been waiting for, for, well... months now. I had seen Dakota and Siena mating on the 11th June, so by going by the information on most sites, Gerbils give birth around 21 to 24 days, so she was due from the 2nd to the 5th July... I noticed she got a little larger, with her scent gland becoming quite noticable. We decided to clean her out a couple of days before the 21st day to make sure she was happy with her home and could build some nice big nests. I gave plenty of ripped up tissue to make the nest more comfortable and I left the bridge and table type thing in, the bridge for her to have the pups in and the table for her to escape from them should she want a rest for a few minutes etc. I also put in less bedding, so she wouldn't neglect the pups and also so they have less chance of getting lost under the bedding and dieing.

Day 24 came and we still had no pups, Siena also seemed to lose her buldge and it was almost as if she wasn't pregnant at all, so I began thinking that perhaps she had given birth and killed the pups, or that she was never pregnant and she had just gotten slightly fatter due to the extra protein I was poviding. By day 26 I had lost all hope and assumed the worst. But I hadn't seen them mating, which was weird so I thought perhaps she wasn't fertile and so she wasn't letting Dakota mate anymore. Pete was trying to tell me that perhaps they had mated when we were asleep... Now most nights we don't get to bed until 2am, so I doubt this very much... If they had, then I definately would've seen them, just like the first time... which they were mating at like 5pm, which shocked me because they are reported at mating at night time... not late afternoon!

Day 26 when I had lost all hope, and I happen to look into their tank (which is almost right next to me at the computer) and I saw Dakota sitting there, eyes half closed, looking very tired. I had noticed he'd been digging away for the last couple of hours. I then noticed Siena out of the corner of my eye under all the bedding, not in a nest. So I looked at her, as they often tend to dig little tunnels. And as I looked in closer, I thought I saw a pup! I kept on looking and eventually saw a little paw moving around.

Woot

I tried not to bother them, Siena moved the pup under the bridge and kept on telling Dakota off for attempting to mate with her. 3 hours passed and there was still only one pup, now I am not sure how long between births but I am pretty sure that they don't take that long between each one. I looked on the NGS site, and it said there that labour can take up to a few hours, so at this point I knew she would only be having one pup.

:(

One pup will not survive because it does not stimulate the mother to produce enough milk, two pups can often cause problems and normally will not survive never mind just one pup.

I never held the pup, as I didn't want to get attached to it, knowing that within a day or so it would probably be dead. At only a day old, there simply isn't anything I can do to help it survive, it needs its mother and it needs her milk with all the antibodies. Perhaps if it was a week or two weeks old I could have helped it, but a couple of hours old... It isn't possible.

Now the next step... I didn't see them mating! This lead me to think that Siena probably really isn't fertile and so didn't want any mating. Luckily though, the next day they did... I just think she doesn't like following what most people say! Normally Gerbils are reported as mating straight after birth... nooooo not siena. She gives birth in the afternoon... not night... she mates in the afternoon... not night. She doesn't do anything by the book!

Now... since all this has happened and looking at photos of the pup, I am thinking perhaps they were deformed or something and that Siena actually reabsorbed some of the pups back when in the womb, because as I said, she did get thinner! when a couple of days before we were certain she was pregnant... As I've never seen pups in real life I just don't know. I wouldn't say anything looked wrong with it, but it did have dark marking around its mouth, which made me think it would have been a DEH or a Nutmeg... But it didn't have black eyes! But REH don't have dark mouths etc... So perhaps something was wrong with it... some kind of scaring???

I'll have to wait until the next litter to find out! I just don't know... I have looked at photos of newborn Nutmegs, and they didn't look like mine. Their bodies were a lot darker than this pup and you could easily see the darkness of the eyes... Perhaps these photos weren't as newly born as mine... Perhaps a day old or something and so had more pigment in their skin and eyes? Where as mine hadn't developed the pigment of its skin yet and so wasn't as dark... I should probably get someone to look at my photos to tell me.

If you have any ideas, please email me here

Okey Dokey, so I was informed that it was unlikely that they were deformed as, often females can have a 'trial pregnancy' Hmmm I knew that they can often have smaller litters to start of with and they gradually get larger. I don't think they were deformed, it more of just an idea. The darkness of the nose was likely to be when Siena was giving birth, trying to pull the pup out. Obviously it came out head first... I'd heard they generally come out back feet first, but there are exceptions.

Hmmm so, it was probably a red eyed pup then, please let it be a Saffron! ;) I know they can definately have Red Eyed Honeys, I am just not sure whether or not Dakota carries 'little a' in order for us to have Nutmegs and Saffrons.

If I do get Nutmegs, I think at some point I might like to try getting CP Nutmegs, they're similar to Kyoto, but with more ticking on them, so they should be very pretty!

August 2004

Well, here we go, some pups at last!

The morning of August 3rd, Pete woke up to squeaking in the nest and Siena sat nursing some pups. Yay.

At first glance Pete thought there were 5, it wasn't until later that he could see there were 6, 4 dark eyed pups, 1 red eyed pup and the other was unknown because it was hiding its head. As I was away on holiday when Siena gave birth, it was left to Pete to take photos of the pups. I had my good camera with me, so he had to use his older camera... There are good photos, just not quite as close or as sharp as mine, but good enough :)

You may want to be cautios if you decide to try handling your pups, see how the mother reacts by putting your hand in the tank, not too close to the nest but close enough to perhaps get a reaction. If she attacks you, then obviously she does not want you near the pups at all. Sometimes the male will be protective too, so be careful at first. Luckily neither of my parents are bothered by my holding their pups. Siena is much more interested in coming out of the tank than what you are doing in there!

I returned back from Scotland when the pups were on their 4th day, and so although it isn't that long I would say it is quite drastic in terms of gerbil development. Only small changes were happening, things like whiskers beginning to come through, and at the time their fuzz was just very slightly beginning to show.

Since then the fur has come through a lot more and it is quite obvious that we have 3 Nutmegs, 1 DEH and 2 REH (I think) there's a slim chance that one might be a Saffron, but I don't think the colour is orange enough, they do look slightly different shades but I still reckon they will both probably be REH.

I think we must have really well behaved babies, because I've still not seen them roaming around the tank out of the nest yet... Other than when Siena is scared, and gets up and still has pups clinging to her, they end up all over the tank. Whenever I get them out though, they can walk around quite well and I have to cup them in my hand and then stroke them back to sleep to get them to stay still for their photos! :)
It's lovely having this tiny little baby, clinging to your fingers or trying to suckle your fingers, can be very addictive!

Warning: don't keep the pups away from mum for too long, otherwise she might get upset. So I would say 5 mins tops just to be sure!

I have found that Siena has been moving her pups around a bit... Now I didn't really think it was because of me, as not everytime I had touched the pups recently and I usually keep my handling to once or twice a day, both times usually to make sure that all pups are in the nest and none have strayed away like on a couple of occasions I have found one under some bedding... getting way too cold for my liking! The mother moving the pups can be because you are handling too much, I hope this wasn't Siena's problem as usually when I hold them she doesn't care, perhaps she isn't happy... I think the bridge is a fine place to nest but she will alternate between the bridge and the corner. Hmph, so anyway as she is now in the corner I have put a towel over the side of the tank to try to make things a little darker, quieter and to help Siena feel more secure. For her next litter I am planning on making a nest box, I still have a few weeks to go yet, so it should be easy enough (I hope!) I did also plan on having our table type thing in there, but a couple of days before Siena gave birth I managed to break one of the legs off and so had to re-glue it back on (only use nontoxic fishtank glue!), I went to Scotland and totally forgot to put it back in and so did Pete. Otherwise they would have had another nest site too, I plan on putting it back in once the pups are a little older, perhaps once their eyes are open. I'm not sure yet.

The pups will be old enough to be seperated from their parents soon, I plan on taking Dakota out and having him with his sons and leaving the females in with Siena to help her bring up the next litter of pups. I don't really want another litter after the next one from Siena. Hopefully she will have some Saffrons in the next litter. If not then I shall breed one of the pups to Dakota, probably one of the Nutmegs, as I know they will definately be carrying Pp and as they are aa, they will quite likely produce Saffrons. Don't worry... I won't breed from the pup until she is atleast 6 months old, so I will have quite a long break from anymore breeding. This also allows for some space to perhaps open up... Not being horrible or anything... Just because the big boys are now over 2 1/2, 6 months time they'll be like 3 years old! Really I don't expect them to live to that age, as 3 is quite rare and certainly elderly for a Gerbil. The girls will also be 2 years old, making them old too, especially for females. I'm just trying to be realistic in what the future will probably bring. Neither pairs look old or tired, but a lot can happen in 6 months.

As inbreeding is often seen as being a bad thing, a little more education in its advantages should also be taught. Siena and Dakota are not related at all, and so are producing beautiful pups, which are friendly have good colour and type too. So, what I'll do is pick the best female pup to breed with Dakota and this pairing should build in their good traits and emphasise them. Line breeding is much safer than if I were to breed sibling to sibling, Father - daughter pairings do not share as much of their genetics as a sibling - sibling pairing would, which could end up having detrimental effects on the offspring.

Dakota and Siena mated on the same day as she gave birth, and as the female can delay the development of the pups until she has finished nursing the current litter, the new pups could be on their way from anywhere around day 33 - 45. Siena doesn't seem to be getting big at all, she did at one point have a small tummy lump like she did with the first pup she had. Now it appears to have gone, so perhaps she just put weight on as I haven't seen her mate so she can't have given birth. I wonder if she will give birth towards day 45, which leaves her with another 14 days (from when this was written) I guess it could be possible for her to balloon out in that time... She doesn't appear to be trying to get rid of the pups yet, which is a good sign as I would hate for her to chase them off or hurt them. Although she does spend most of her evenings trying to get away from the pups... They must drive her mad.

September 2004

I removed the male pups and Dakota from the tank, on 10th September as Siena was getting a lot larger and it was quite obvious that she would be giving birth sometime soon. I had to wait an agonising three days until she finally gave birth at around 11:45am on the Monday morning - 13th September. She gave birth almost exactly 6 weeks to the day... Just a few hours later and it would've been. So that means she extended the pregnancy until day 41, which is quite a long time.

I was there to witness Siena giving birth, I didn't get to see everything in gory detail as she was often giving birth in the nest with beddiing around her. She had 5 little pups, 3 with dark eyes and 2 with red eyes, so there was hope for a Saffron in this litter.

6th October 2004

The pups are now 23 days old and definately terrorising ma and big sisters. The Saffron is amazingly adult like, if a lot smaller. She can easily jump out of the carrier and she also runs all over my arm, basically a mini Siena. I do wish she was a lot calmer though, for breeding purposes. If she was nice and docile, then bred with Dakota should produce some beautifully calm pups. I'm not sure though, I might breed Dakota with Roma instead as they're just as likely to have Saffrons, as we are with Dakota x Saffron. This way I could keep the Saffron for showing.

I haven't named the pups yet... Some reason it seems to take me a while... I dunno we just don't even really think about it until they are weaned and near enough adults. I don't think we named the last litter until they were 5/6 weeks old.